12 Comments

1. Just interested if you are a member of the ‘traditional’ church (Catholic, Methodist, CofE etc) and you are trying to influence them to be more inclusive, or have you spilt off and started your own denomination?

   If the first, I think you are pushing the proverbial uphill, they are conservatives and will never change, if the second, I wish you all the best because inclusion should be what Christianity is all about.

   All the best to you.

2. I have been a member of a traditional church most of my life (several different traditional churches over the years) but right now I am not. I certainly aren’t planning my own denomination, but I would be happy to be part of what someone else is doing. We also lead a small independent group of Christians that could be called a “house church” but certainly not a denomination.

   I think greater inclusion is inevitable and happening slowly. I used to think it was inevitable even when I wasn’t in agreement with it. There are reasons why well-meaning Christians oppose LGBTQI inclusion but while I have some questions about it all, those reasons no longer seem good to me. I think there is a good case to be made for letting each person make up their own mind. And I see more and more Christians I respect moving in the direction of full inclusion, even if they aren’t fully there yet. I read once that science progresses one funeral at a time, and I think change in the church can require generational change.

   I think other forms of inclusion (women, racial minorities, disabled) are further along the path, and very much should be.

3. There has been generational change for 2000 years!

   Inclusion would seem to be two way. If LGBTI groups continue to demonstrate outside churches and disrupt services there may be reluctance to let them in.

4. Yes, I think the Christian church has been constantly changing and adapting (and the Jewish faith before that – and since also). Many Christians want to believe that the Bible is fixed and nothing should change, but it has never happened, even among those Christians. The Bible text doesn’t change much, but interpretations are always changing. If Christianity couldn’t change to suit the times and culture, it would be dead.

   Are there many occasions where queer groups have demonstrated or disrupted? I don’t recall seeing many, but I may easily have missed it. But I agree, change is more likely to come from personal relationships. It’s hard to demonise someone when they have become your friend!

5. The demonstrations were around the time of the same sex marriage debate so it would have quietened down since then, although you get occasional demonstrations by pro-abortionists (sorry, pro-choice) against the Catholic church, possibly more so in the US than Australia.

   The abortion issue would be harder to reconcile I think, you are either for or against, there would seem to be little middle ground.

6. Yes, I’m sure there was some protest at the church’s stance onthe same sex marriage proposals, but the churches were attempting to control other people’s lives, so probably should have expected pushback.

   Abortion is an interesting one. I have always been personally anti-abortion in the sense that I wouldn’t want to support what might be (and I think likely is) the taking of a human life. But my views have become tempered by a number of things:

   1. Not everyone sees it as taking a human life.
   2. There are something like 4 times as many natural miscarriages as human-induced, so we ought to be addressing that issue first.
   3. In the US, abortions are more common in states which prohibit them, I think because those states tend to have patriarchal laws that don’t encourage or support contraception.
   4. Some parts of the anti abortion crowd seem to be so ugly these days.

   But on the other hand, when a woman miscarries, they sometimes name the child and have a funeral service. But not for an abortion. That seems inconsistent. Does it mean that our choice makes the child human or not?

   So I remain personally anti abortion, but I’m not willing to tell someone else what they should think.

7. So I remain personally anti abortion, but I’m not willing to tell someone else what they should think.

   My sentiments too.

   Do you think the church will adopt that attitude eventually?

8. “So I remain personally anti abortion, but I’m not willing to tell someone else what they should think.” An odd statement, why not tell others what to do? Abortion would seem to be about the most morally one-sided debate with the stakes so high so as NOT to make a public stand? We can be divisive on this issue or else let a misplaced sense of fairness prevent us from speaking with our hearts to those who need to make the right decision in favour of life.

9. “Do you think the church will adopt that attitude eventually?”

   Sorry, I somehow missed this comment bnefore.

   I think the response will be mixed – some adopting this view, others staying firmly opposed. (It is worth noting that some of the first proponents of legalised abortion were apparently Christians concerned about the health of women with unwanted pregancies and/or illegal abortions.)

   My hope would be that with reduced inequality and better treatment of women (which ought to happen in a Christian society), there would be better family planning, less unwanted pregnancies and greater ability for women to carry and raise a child, and so the need or wish for abortion would be greatly reduced.

10. “An odd statement, why not tell others what to do? Abortion would seem to be about the most morally one-sided debate with the stakes so high so as NOT to make a public stand? We can be divisive on this issue or else let a misplaced sense of fairness prevent us from speaking with our hearts to those who need to make the right decision in favour of life.”

    Hi William, thanks for your comment. It is a good question.

    I don’t find this an easy question to resolve. I have long been personally opposed to abortion, for if the foetus is a human being, then killing it is murder.

    But the most important word in that sentence is “if”. I don’t actually know that it is taking a human life. I think it may be, but I see no way to be sure. That being the case, it is hard to see how I can or should try to persuade someone who thinks differently, or impose my view on them.

    I am also aware that abortion isn’t an act that exists in isolation. Doubtless for some women, the decision to abort is a lifestyle one, but for many women it comes in the midst of poverty, patriarchy, sexual pressure from men, lack of birth control, etc. In such circumstances, continuing with a pregnancy that may not have been their choice could mean ill health, loss of work, poverty, shame and a blighted life for both mother and child.

    Appartently the most anti-abortion states in the US are also generally the ones that provide least family planning facilities and after-birth care facilities. It seems to me that anti-abortionists must do better in these areas.

    I’d be interested to hear more of your views and to discuss further if you wanted to. In any case, I have written more extensively on abortion previously in Christians and abortion and Do we want fewer abortions?. Perhaps you’d like to discuss further based on those posts?

    Thanks again for your interest.

11. “My hope would be that with reduced inequality and better treatment of women (which ought to happen in a Christian society), there would be better family planning, less unwanted pregnancies and greater ability for women to carry and raise a child, and so the need or wish for abortion would be greatly reduced.”

    I would hope so too, but I think that there are indications that this won’t happen.

    The public education system seems to have been taken over by Left Wing feminist unions intent on promoting women’s “rights”, ie abortion on demand with little sensible discussions on responsible family planning. The religious schools seem more interested in proselyting and persecuting “immorality” again without sensible discussion and politicians have no interest in being portrayed as interfering in people’s lives or as “social engineers”.

    So, I have hope that things may improve but I’m not holding my breath.

12. Yes, I agree things are very polarised, which doesn’t make for good choices on either side.